INTERVIEWER: Do you have advice for business people that have suffered great loss at the hands of their offender?

BRUCE HEBEL: That's a really interesting question. I guess the quick answer is, the blood of Jesus covers all sins including the ones committed against me and true forgiveness is applying the blood of Jesus as payment in full for every wound I ever have or will suffer. Oftentimes we get confused because we categorize offenses. It's a business offense. It's a personal offense. It's a family offense. It's a neighborhood offense. So we've got clusters of categories of offenses, but really offenses are offenses!

There was a literal billionaire that came to one of our teachings. Actually, we sat down with him to talk about a project we were doing. As a friend was connecting us with this man, we shared our story and then he began to read our material. Then he came to a Forgiving Forward Seminar and then he told me later, he said, "you know, I was on my way to" and he mentioned a major city that he was going to, "to deal with a man who had not performed on the project that we had we agreed to. He had not kept up his end of the bargain and I was about to go lay the hammer on him. And as I thought about it and I forgave, before I went, I forgave. I went and I was able to help him and not lay the hammer on him, but actually give him grace  and we worked through where I think he can now move up to performing on the project". 

So, the mindset really shifts for us when we understand that the material isn't the important thing, it's the spiritual aspect that's the important thing. When you understand that the blood of Jesus covers everything and you look at things from a spiritual point of view rather than materialistic point of view, I think everything shifts.

TONI HEBEL: Yeah and I notice too, that in that situation and many others just like that situation, that once those people forgive, not only is their heart free and they are acting in compassion and following through with believing in that person once again, but that something happens in the other offending person. When we forgive, we are out of the way and then God can work on that other person. That's what happened in this case! This other person began performing in a different way just because the first man forgave him and left the rest up to God. We also had another situation where there was a man who everybody knew was really struggling. He was negative. He was heavy. His emotions were not in a good place.

BRUCE HEBEL: Heavy emotionally.

TONI HEBEL: Yeah, that's what I mean, emotionally. And so, he just couldn't and we were brought into a situation where we were teaching a group of very highly influential businessmen according to the world’s standards.

BRUCE HEBEL: High capacity earners.

TONI HEBEL: So, they all knew him and knew his story and he just couldn't seem to get free of all this. So, as we worked with the group, we had a time where they all separated and went into special places by themselves and dealt with the things they were dealing with the wounds they had. We came back together and we asked everybody to share their experience of what happened, and he was in tears. He was the first to answer and he said, “My story is this: There was a man, a partner that I had in this business and he turned on me and he stole $100,000 from me, just flat out stole $100,000 and I couldn't get over that.”

BRUCE HEBEL: Now, he said, "It wasn't a whole lot. It was just $100,000." I don't understand that lifestyle, but... 

TONI HEBEL: OK, Well, sounds like a lot to me, but to him, you know, relative I guess. So he said, “I just forgave him and I cannot believe the freedom I'm feeling right now. The hope I have. That heaviness I had was gone.” And so, forgiveness applies to the business world just as much as it does to the relational world.

BRUCE HEBEL: Now, but that doesn't always mean that if there is a financial debt and a company is involved, that you don't use the legal recourses to make things right for the company because it's not good to allow someone to defraud.

I think Ephesians 4 talks about... "let him who steals, steal no longer." So, it's not good to let them continue to steal, but, our heart gets free when we choose to forgive and then our dealing with them in that loss as it relates to the company or the family or whoever else is involved in the business. Right. Our attitude toward them, our heart toward them, will now become redemptive as opposed to desiring retribution. And so, it changes how we deal with it. And so now, we're listening to God. God, how do you want us to act?  What's better for them? How do we all find the way you want this resolved? So again, what forgiveness does is it changes my heart toward the person so that once that gets out of the way the detail of the business can be resolved in a way that's not clouded by the personal.

INTERVIEWER: Let me highlight what you're talking about there because obviously that principle of legal recourse certainly applies when there's been a personal crime committed against someone. Right? So the same principle would apply to business. What about a civil situation? Sometimes it's one thing to say I'm going to go after someone for: they've broken the law and so there's legal recourse. What about a situation where someone goes after someone for civil damages and there's a civil suit involved? You know, I'm thinking both in terms of a business situation or maybe even a personal situation, since you brought the legal side of things up. How would you?  Would it be wrong for me to file civil charges versus criminal charges, like, am I being vindictive? Am I looking for the wrong kind of justice? What would you say to that?

TONI HEBEL: Well, can you give us an example of a civil charge?

INTERVIEWER: One of the most obvious to me is when O.J. Simpson was not convicted in the criminal court of murder, but he was convicted in a civil court of murder. Like the family went after him for damages, even though the government had acquitted him in a trial. I mean, that's a pretty extreme, that's a pretty extreme example, but that's, kind of, the first one that I think of.

BRUCE HEBEL: Well, let’s look at that example, and then I'm going to give a more generic answer. But, if you look at that example and you look at the players involved, the families that did the civil suit, and you watch their demeanor, you could tell that they were still in torment. This was vengeful.

To me, from an outside observer looking in, it appeared to be, “we're going to make him pay”. So, if you're doing a civil suit in order to make them pay because the justice system didn't work the way you wanted it to, then you're jumping into a role that's really above your pay grade because that's a God role. We're not responsible to make someone pay. Romans 12 talks about that. If your enemy is hungry, feed him. If he's thirsty, giving something to drink. Those good things you do to someone, get you out of the way and allows God to bring repentance into their heart. So, would it always be wrong to do a civil suit? I don't think we're going to make that kind of a strong statement, but we are going to say, I'm going to check my heart before I do and am I doing it to a) make them pay; or b) better myself? Those are two motives that are more indicative of unforgiveness and pride.

But, if I'm doing it because there's a group of people over here or a company that's lost business and they're suffering and I can come in and be a man of justice to help this group, that's a different question. And so, you really have to look at the circumstances as to what is going on and why you're doing it and really, is God leading this? Is this is a mindset? Is this an attitude in me that is reflective of the grace of God and the truth of God?

TONI HEBEL: Both grace and truth.

BRUCE HEBEL: He is God! Jesus was 100% grace and 100% truth. So, grace and forgiveness doesn't mean that the offense didn't happen and it doesn't matter and there isn't some resolution that has to take place. But, it does mean that you're trusting God to do it.

TONI HEBEL: Yeah. Motive. What's my motive? What's the truth here Lord?

BRUCE HEBEL: Yeah. Why am I doing it?