TONI HEBEL: No.

BRUCE HEBEL: Not at all.

TONI HEBEL: No.

BRUCE HEBEL: Quite the opposite.

TONI HEBEL: Yeah. The forgiveness says that what happened to me was wrong. It should have never happened. It was not OK. You know, I think we're raised a lot to say, you know, as we're children, when we're children. When something happens, just, oh, just tell them it's OK. Yeah, it's OK.

BRUCE HEBEL: It's OK. It's OK.

TONI HEBEL: Will you please forgive me? Sure, not a problem.

BRUCE HEBEL: It's no big deal.

TONI HEBEL: But it is a problem! And Jesus Christ himself identifies with that because when he forgave it cost him greatly. And so, no, it's not OK. But, forgiveness does say that it was already paid for. That's just a big deal. They don't owe me anything because Jesus already paid for their sins against me. As we know in 1 John 2:2 that says that Jesus is the satisfaction not only for my sins, but also the sins of the entire world. So, it did matter. It cost Christ his life. But they do not owe me anything because Jesus paid for it and for me to demand any more payment says that his blood is not enough.

BRUCE HEBEL: And when you think about it, no sin is insignificant to God.

And when you think about God's holiness, God's holy in all that He is, thinks, says and does. Is totally good and right in all that He is, thinks, says and does is totally free from evil of any kind and any violation of that holiness separates us from God. That's what the sin of the garden did it was separation. So every sin is significant. One little... Just eating from a forbidden fruit sent the whole world into judgment. So no sin is insignificant. We judge things and we'll say this is worse and now I get it.

But it all cost us something. Every sin damages our relationship with God and our relationship with someone else. And relationships are of highest importance to God.  So it's not insignificant, however, it was paid for. That's the big point. Who covers the cost? Now, if I'm driving down the road and somebody runs a stop sign and just totals my car, I'm going to go, oh, I mean, I like my car. I really like my car. And so now my car is destroyed.

Oh, that's a big deal to me. But I no longer -  if I exchange the two pieces of information you're supposed to always exchange at an accident, the driver's license and the insurance card, and they're covered on the insurance card, then I get relieved.

It mattered that it happened. But I know it's going to get covered. It's going to get taken care of. My car's going to be- I'm going to be made whole based upon the insurance resolving the need for the new car. So when we think about it. Something happened to me. Yeah. It's a big deal. Big deal.

However, there is a greater entity than the person who did it who's coming alongside and saying, I've got coverage for that. I got you covered.

And so, when we say what they did was wrong. The things we suffered, the things that we've had to forgive in our lives are horrific things. And they did matter. They wounded us. They wounded our kids, our family, our friends. But Jesus covered it. And He's used it for His Glory and our good. So it's a bad thing, but it becomes an okay thing when you trust God to not only cover it, but redeem it and take us into a new place and bring beauty out of it.

"Bring Gardens out of Deserts" is a new song that's, kind of, out there. So there's a whole thought process, mindset toward it. It's not OK.

It is paid for and my freedom comes when I honor the payment Jesus made for that.

TONI HEBEL: But relationally or emotionally, I should say, it was very freeing for me when this revelation came to me that said, I don't have to carry that out, it's okay for me to say that what they did was wrong. Because I used to always think, I used to believe that, you know. No, it didn't matter. You know, it's OK, what they did. I just need to deal with it. Whatever. And when I was able to separate that and declare, no, what they did was wrong. It's just that it was paid for. That brought great freedom to my heart.

BRUCE HEBEL: Yeah. Because, be honest. It's never really OK for us even when we say, it's OK, it's OK, there's always, until we forgive it, until we apply the blood of Jesus as payment for it, there's always this ... (pain in your heart)

As you long as you got the (pain in your heart) It's not been okay.  We're just, kind of, not being honest about how we feel about it. But the feeling gets resolved when we make the payment of the blood over it.

TONI HEBEL: So that's why we need to identify the feeling. Identify the wound. I declare this was wrong. This is not OK that this thing happened. That's what we need to do that first before we can actually apply it.

And so, it's a good thing to recognize that what they did was wrong.

BRUCE HEBEL: Yeah. So as you're saying that, it makes me realize that the enemy is probably the one saying, oh, just say it's OK, it's OK because he knows if you don't identify it, you won't deal with it. You have to identify the problem before you deal with the problem. So you have to identify the hurt, identify the wound and then apply the blood. And that's how you get healed.

So.

TONI HEBEL: Right, because we need to admit where we are before we can leave where we are.

BRUCE HEBEL: Absolutely.

TONI HEBEL: Yeah.

BART BLAIR: So, if I forgive someone for something they've done to me, a wound, a sin that they've committed against me, I never have to say it's OK.

BRUCE HEBEL: No.

TONI HEBEL: No.

BRUCE HEBEL: No. You just have to say, it's paid for and it's been made OK because of the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.